Curse

Hanok Odbrook · Jun 16, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

There's been thousands of threads like this in Sardelac Sanitarium about balancing FA and fixing the "turtle bugs." I usually play the Luxon side because I find it easier to win. Seriously, you just have to roll a character with a high-dps spike and it's not difficult. The Gatekeepers don't have insane amounts of health, just like, 600. Plus they don't really react fast enough with prot spirit to be a gamebreaker. As long as the Kurzicks didn't get 3 bond monks on their team, it's not a hard win. Also, from personal experience, the turtles only get stuck about once every 20 matches from the Luxon side.

In a nutshell, I think FA is as balanced as it could possibly be. I typically win about 80% of my games on the Luxon side. Just be intelligent and take a decent build. As long as you don't get any leechers/ragequitters on your team, there's enough PvE noobs playing on either side to rack up easy faction.

Yup, pretty much. Like I said, the Luxons had a 12 game winning streak in the stretch of time I was playing a week or so ago - I started out as Kurz and after the first 5 losses jumped to the Lux side and won the next 7.

Most of my title faction for both sides has come from playing FA, especially since JQ was dead the first couple of years, and the PvE faction only accounted for the first couple of tiers, so the Luxon side really isn't all that bad - as many of us keep saying and pointing out.

Hanok

MithranArkanere · Jun 16, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I can't really be balanced unless both sides have the same objectives or take turns with different objectives.

Balancing shield and swrod vs shield and sword is easier than balancing just a shield vs just a sword.

Eramon · Jun 16, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

being able to switch sides balances things out. you can either wait longer for a better chance to win, or wait shorter for a worse chance to win.

no one is forced to be on the worse side, and there is a point where it's disadvantageous to be on the better side

What an extremely lazy solution. Well done.

No, I don't think it's going to be fixed. If that day ever comes, I probably won't care since I'll be playing Guild Wars 2.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 16, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

it would be cool if they made a fort for the luxons, and each team had to assault the other's fort and kill guarding npcs until they reached a vital one at the very back. think of like dota/league of legends for guild wars. i would up the team size to like 12 on 12 or 16 on 16 then.

EDIT: oh lol i just realized my suggestion sounds very similar to gvg./facepalm

tummlykins · Jun 17, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

I have been playing FA since Factions came out, and even more so within the last month or so since there are threads like this popping up every other day. TBH, tracking all my wins/losses playing from either side, I am pretty much 50/50, which tells me that (as mentioned by others here and in the countless other threads), the true unbalance comes from the players playing the match. When I can literally have 3-4 of the Luxons chasing me (as Kurzick) in circles around the outside of the fort, then of course they are going to loose. The problem stems from the Luxons not playing smart. I have been in matches where half the Kurzes were monks and we still won the match as Luxons, because we worked as a team and played smart.

The last stretch where I really played the heck out of the area a week or so ago, I saw 12 straight losses on the Kurzick side. Yes there are some issues in the arena, such as the turtles sticking (out of over 200 matches, only saw it 3 times, though), and other things like Rangers being able to cap the orange quarry from inside the fort, but all relatively minor and all have been overcome in numerous matches I have played.

Hanok

I swear to god it sounds like you are talking about a different arena. Over 200 matches and you only saw the turtle stall bug 3 times? You are an insanely lucky fluke. I have days where I see it every match for 8 matches in a row. If you only see 3/200 you either have a Kurzick killing it when it stalls or someone doing the weird aggro thing that unstalls it (sometimes if it is stalled, aggroing it will cause it to move again, but most Kurzicks leave it alone and focus on the other side once it stalls).

I have played as a Luxon far more than as a Kurzick and both sides on several classes to get rank 12 Luxon in here (because I enjoyed playing when I had a good team and didn't get screwed by leechers and leavers or bugs). I can consistently get 10+ wins in a row when I spawn on Kurzick teams with 1 monk. I can only do the same when I spawn on a Luxon team with knowledgeable aggressive players against only zero or one Kurzick monk and an unsuspecting Kurzick side (lots of rare variables). I can usually win as a Kurzick simply by running a spirit spammer by the teleporter, never moving all match causing the Luxons to funnel through the purple gate while I stall the orange turtle and passively defend all the NPCs on that side making it very difficult for the average player to break through without turtle support. My team picks them off with a focused offense as they desperately try to push through. The map strongly favours the Kurzicks due to them having to do very little travelling to accomplish their goals.

I wish I had your experience, I really do.

Thock · Jun 17, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

In my experience, if the Luxon have two decent healers that can keep themselves and the turtles up, and some decent damage to get people off the ledges, they win unless the Kurzicks have 3+ healers. If they have that many healers it is near impossible to keep all of them down long enough to kill Gunther, even with both turtles, because of the short re spawn and the closeness of the shrine. I have seen matches take place almost entirely inside the green gate with both turtles inside and still the Kurzicks win because they have three or more healers.

During zaishen days and double weekends this gets a lot worse as there are a ton of people rolling monks on Kurzick side for easy wins. I have also noticed that the Luxon side rarely has good healers that can keep themselves and the turtles up.

The simplest solution to me seems to be adding diminishing returns to the respawn timer. If someone is killed within, let's say 1 minute of their last death, add an aditional 10 seconds to the respawn.

makosi · Jun 21, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

To fix FA:

1) End 'Heal Wars'. I know it's a random format but it shouldn't be too painstaking to implement some kind of algorithim to restrict the extreme healing/defensive spirit spamming that goes on. It can be impossible, impossible, impossible to counteract with any sort of builds or tactics. The Kurzick side is much more guilty of this since their goal is to defend the Fort. If any developers tested this they'd know about this concern.

2) Fix the goddamn turtle stalling bug. Someone posted on the new shiny official forum about this yet none of the staff there have posted to even acknowledge it. The Luxon side is at a massive disadvantage without these reptilian retards.

3.1) Let it be 8v8. Often times only 7 people load on one or both sides which plays a great part in determining the outcome. Also, leeching and leaving is still a problem which hasn't been addressed satisfactorily and has the same effect as the above. Bring on the ban scythe, please.
3.2) If the ban scythe is out of order then let me quit and reload an 8v8 map without being penalized. A 10-minute doomed match of perpetual resurrecting and dying is a long and boring process over which I have no control. The FA people will not resign when provided with any degree of reasoning and common sense I give them. My proposal: if one team member is reported for leeching by 1/3 of the team or someone quits, then let me quit without accruing dishonor. I can't simply go afk because the game punishes me for that too. I don't appreciate being compelled to sit and twiddle keys for 10 minutes in a match that my team is certainly condemned to lose in. I did nothing wrong - punish the quitters and leechers more harshly.

4) Add an NPC to allow people to explore the FA (and JQ) maps in their own instance so that they can do cartography on their own time.

5) Remove the "Cannot attack. ((Monster only))" thing from newly respawned NPCs.

6) If a player is either "offline" or ignoring, then don't let them PM. It legitimizes verbal abuse.

7) Replace the Kurzick Mesmers' Psychic Instability with the PvP version.

Dami · Jun 21, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

Hell no. I've been playing it for a couple years almost non stop and every post or something I've wrote on the wiki about it is ignored by developers and the community at large.

What it needs more than a rebalance are random npcs. It is just WAY too pro caster. The things that Mesmers and Necros can do from either side stands so strong against melee and other professions it's ridiculous.

I also completely agree about Luxons needing to be more knowledgable. That is absolutely correct. Sucks that most are dumb as a bag of rocks and unwilling to learn. I even have done some grief testing where I'd spam aneurysm and open free gates, but no, they STILL lose. They even attack griefers, even down to if you explained what the skill does. I don't use the word noob since I think it's stupid but those are the actions of a true noob. There is no defense you can make for that kind of behavior. Pathetic and yes, justifies the Suxon term to also being accurate. I also see a HIGH amount of forgotten turtles, it is a constant annoyance. I have done testing on that too and it can be forgot for usually 30s+ which is a big amount of time... people don't get it in their head that you go when the squad dies. IMMEDIATELY. Yes YOU, you died first so go. I don't care what you role is. If nobody dies, somebody call it first. It's like my job to release turtles. Forget that. And people also can't understand that you have the WHOLE GAME FOR GREEN. Attacking green first accomplishes nothing 9 times out of 10. You all think you are special or have a killer build, but you nuked in seconds... they just try it over and over. Clear the center first, it cannot be fixed. Very few should be allowed to break away and go nuts: domination spam, SF anything, touchers, anybody else get the hell out.

Oh please. you go out of the way to look at how people play, insult the luxon side and think your way better?

To Chicken To Die · Jun 21, 2011, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Unblanced or just to many people that can't play?
Cus it is srs easy luxon side when you sync with a few people

BlackSephir · Jun 21, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Unblanced or just to many people that can't play?
Cus it is srs easy luxon side when you sync with a few people

You're one of many reasons why FA is terrible.

Martin Alvito · Jun 22, 2011, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Rebalancing FA would involve effort. Expending that effort would involve hiring personnel capable of making reasoned judgments about both the problems facing the format and the correct approach to solving those problems.

So, in short, no.

Dami · Jun 22, 2011, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I play the game for fun. yep that right FUN. I play whatever i feel like playing. It gets a bit boring when you get people saying how things should be done. If i want to cap bases i cap bases if i wanna go kill some players i do, or i play a more support role. Guides are great but i play my way. We all like to win, but why can't people just give the game a break? After six years of playing and being called a noob is great fun too.

makosi · Jun 22, 2011, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Rebalancing FA would involve effort. Expending that effort would involve hiring personnel capable of making reasoned judgments about both the problems facing the format and the correct approach to solving those problems.

So, in short, no.

Bingo. It's just a case of temporarily reallocating those personnel to competitive missions. But then again they're very busy making pets and tonics.

thedarkmarine · Jun 23, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Sure, FA could be rebalanced soon.

But it will never be balanced. By design, that is impossible.

that's retarded.

if the (expected faction gained)/time is equal for both sides, then it is balanced. none of us has the data to say it is balanced or not, but they do

Mercury Angel · Jun 23, 2011, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Aspenwood can be a two-map rotation, in which teams are randomly assigned to a map. One map would be exactly as it is now. The second map would have the sides reversed, with the NPCs simply reskinned and name swapped. Tack on Enslaved to the names of the Siege Turtles and Juggernaut on the reversed map and call it a day.

Relore it as a contested zone. Luxons don't just want to halt the development of the Judgment weapon - they want it for their own use.

In spite of the fundamental design flaws and persistent bugs, at least people won't be able to play to them more than half the time. The number of players should equalize more organically without gameplay advantages or specific faction rewards.
This shouldn't require nearly as much in the way of resources as overhauling the map and reprogramming AI from scratch. It may not be ideal, but it is simple and fair.

To Chicken To Die · Jun 23, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

You're one of many reasons why FA is terrible.

Because I dont play it? True if I would play i it would become freaking awsome.

But srs if there is one thing that OP it are turtles. And all that QQ about they heal gunther need to learn wich skills are at there disposel and how to use them. For example if they have bonders what so ever.
Gaze of Contemp
Well of Profane

If they have many monks
Lingering curse
Barbs
Soul barbs
Soul Bind

And that is just one proffesion

Maybe if the player base wasn't filled with trolls like you with non grounded statements and only cry this game might actualy be fun to play. So in al you are the reason why people start hating this game more and more.

Killed u man · Jun 24, 2011, 01:06 AM // 01:06

The problem is that the curses line is pretty awefull when not teambuilded around it. In other words, as long as JQ/FA are random (teams), the curses attribute line will never be viable, as straightforward damage is much better than degen. The healing penalty of LC is nice, but still doesn't come close to actual AoE damage. Also when you'll need it most (against many monks), you'll find that you just can't hit enough people with it. Predatory Season would work 10 times better...

Well of the Profane is highly conditional, but does fall within a nice attribute line. It's definatly viable, but there's still so much other factors you've got to think about. Damage, non enchant healing, etc.

A large problem with FA is that there isn't "one build to rule them all" for Luxon side, whereas there is one for Kurzick. Essentially, if Kurzicks have enough Monks, they will not die. All these people talking about Turtles raping Monks and stuff clearly don't know how to Monk. Cover Enchantments, interrupting siege (Leech says hi) are already 2 VERY viable options. Every Monk has got atleast 1 throwaway enchant at his disposal, most likely Patient Spirit.

If every player were to suddenly run bars "for the best of the team" (Read: Not play the stuff you want to play, but the stuff that would win you the game) the truth is that on Kurzick side, everyone could play Monk and get away with it, as I've seen 3 Monks hold up Kurzick side for the full duration of the match with 2 afk'ers. (And believe me, Luxon side wasn't terrible by any means)

On Luxon side, if you have too much Monks, you won't kill jack shit, especially against teams with many Monks aswell, which usually means autowin for Kurzick. If you don't have enough Monks, you'll find yourself having to break the Kurzick fortress (and Guntah) without any aid from turtles. This can still turn out a win if the Kurzicks don't have a good Monk.

For the Luxon side to be succesfull, (And that's already assuming Kurzicks don't have many Monks) you need very specific teamsetup, and as such "buildwarsing" only works if you get matched up with people who fill the other parts of the puzzle.

You could bring your Curses necro, but find yourself without a single physical damage dealer, incapable of even forcing the Monk to heal, rendering most of your curses useless. You could bring big damage, only to find an Air of Enchantment Monk keeping up NPC's with ease.

TL;DR: A conqsequence of the non-mirror format (each side different objectives) is that "Monks" are the Kurzick profession. (rit healers work to, or healers of any sort) Luxons need a variety of things, ranging from extreme defence to extreme offence, and there is no "golden" bar which could win you every game.

=> It's impossible to "build wars" on Luxon side because you won't know who or what you'll get teamed up with. Whereas on Kurzick side, a Monk is always welcome, the more the merryer even. As a result, if people really wanted to everyone could play Monk on Kurzick side, and you'dd loose probably less than 1% of the Matches.

GWfan#1 · Jun 24, 2011, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Do you think Fort Aspenwood will ever be rebalanced?: No.

Ximvotn · Jun 24, 2011, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I still play FA every now and then, but JQ is more balanced than that because the objective and difficulties are the same on each side.

upier · Jun 24, 2011, 05:11 AM // 05:11

1. Luxon suck.
There is no way to get around this. Most of the games that are lost are lost because the players run shitty builds, don't know what to attack (not WHO, but WHAT!), are afraid to go into the Fort AND refuse to listen to people that do know how to play the arena.
They also refuse to resign (when the team isn't good enough to win - which, is most of the times) even if resigning after they breach the purple and orange gates would grant the team 2k Imperial faction (on top of the kill-rewards). Breaching these gates happens at some 20% so just calling it quits then would allow the Luxon to gain unhealthy amounts of faction due to the lack of a waiting time on their side.

2.
On top of the Luxon sucking there's also the problem of an imbalanced map. But this doesn't play a role often enough, because as I said, most of the time the Luxon lose because they are so insanely bad.
To fix that (and it NEEDS to be fixed, because one match lost due to the map when you SHOULDN'T have lost, is one match lost too many), the Kurzick need an active objective. The simplest I can come up with is to demand that they carry in a certain amount of amber - amber from Orange/Purple mine is worth 1 point, amber from the Green one is worth 2 points.
If the Kurzick fail to bring in enough amber and the Luxon fail to kill Gunther the match would end in a draw, contrary to the current situation where the Kurzick always win. That would demand that the Kurzick open gates and it would demand that Kurzick also have offensive classes on their team.
I imagine some 20 points worth of amber should be the requirement because you can expect some 5+ amber from the first rush and if the Kurzick were to go after the Green mine in the first rush they would be very close to meeting the partial win-criteria right from the start (and then they'd just need to barricade themselves behind closes gates again) IF the number was much lower. But I guess this number could be fine-tuned later on - implementing the change would be the time consuming part, just changing the number from 20 to 18 later on shouldn't be a problem.
What I'd then also do is add an additional way for the Kurzick to win - if they bring in a certain amount of amber, the match is over even if the Vengeance hasn't reached 100. That would give overly offensive Kurzick teams a hint of a chance, compared to pretty much auto-losing right now.